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| Forums: September 2010 Kickstart Forum Archive: the more I read, the more I am confused... | |||
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| wen
Joined: 09/08/10 Posts: 54 |
the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 9:27 AM As I was reading this thanksgiving holidays...got couple books at book store...the more I read, not really help, and I am totally confused now... I was reading books by McDougall Program, Joel Fuhrman (Eat to Live), and of course, got this new copy by Neal Barnard (the get healthy, go vegan cookbook) found out all 3 programs are all plant good based...but, some ok with nuts, or starch veggie (potatoes) ...or like more or unlimited fruit, while some has fruit limited...similar but feeling totally different and now, I am so confused which one to follow, and what difference between them ... |
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| Susan Levin
Joined: 12/26/09 Posts: 1212 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 9:59 AM Dr. Barnard's program follows the guidelines of a more therapeutic diet - a diet with 10 percent of its calories from fat. This would be hard to achieve when including nuts and other fatty plant foods. Drs. Ornish and Esselstyn would recommend this very low-fat program. Other physicians may make other plant-based recommendations. I would argue it's fine to have a little more fat in the diet if you are an ideal weight, have a clean bill of health, and lead a healthful lifestyle (don't smoke, exercise, stress management, etc.). Only you can know where you lie on the spectrum of health. If you eat say 20 percent of your calories from fat but have some health issues (high blood sugar, high cholesterol, overweight) that just won't improve, then I would consider taking the fat down a notch until you see the results you want. Susan Levin, MS, RD |
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| Lauren1213
Joined: 09/06/10 Location: Florida Posts: 57 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 11:35 AM Thank you, Susan, for clarifying that. I was finding myself getting frustrated and confused, also. They say sometimes too much information isn't a good thing, and in this case, the more I read, I had to wonder if that was true. I was overwhelmed and didn't know which way to go. I wasn't physically satisfied on Dr. Barnard's program anymore, and I was contemplating finding another one. Instead, still completely trusting Dr. Barnard, I decided that what was missing was enough variety. So, I began creating different recipes, making sure we weren't stuck on too much of one meal type. That is what I had done in March, when we first started, and it had worked. And now it's working again. I have type 2 diabetes, and my blood sugar is very very slowly coming down. The other thing I've done, because I seem to be a hard case where my blood sugars are concerned, is begin to pay more attention to portion control. That is very hard for me, because I'm a big eater. But if it works to drop the sugars down, than I figure I'm going to have to bite the bullet and just do it. I hope by the time the next Kickstart gets under way that I'm going to be on the way to recovery! Lauren |
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| theodore
Joined: 09/16/10 Posts: 643 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 1:01 PM . Never make assumptions. You'll end up being an A**, and the UMP will TION you. -- Coach Smiley -- Fresh Prince of Bel Air |
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| Madcat
Joined: 09/07/10 Location: MICHIGAN!!!! Posts: 61 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 1:02 PM I will go a step further and say after reading "The China Study" and seeing one of the food list of foods to minimize and not in the eliminate category was fish I was confused. Nuts and avocados where on the "eat all you want" list. Then there was the article about vegans in the magazine "Men's Journal" about Tony Gonzalez (sp?) tight end for the Atlanta Falcons who was told by T. Colin Campbell to eat fish to maintain his muscle mass and I think he said lean beef (not sure and can't find the magazine). I thought "The China Study" was suppose to be the bible for going vegan, at least that's what I was told. |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2087 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 1:19 PM and then I just got an email from a friend whose chiro wants her on the "deflame diet" - cut out all grains (whole grains included) but it's okay to have fish, poultry, eggs, butter (but keep the butter limited). She wanted my take on it as well as ideas for what to eat. I gave her my two cents on it, asked a few questions, and referred her to the main PCRM site to poke around in. Anyone got two cents on the "deflame diet"? --Deb R |
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Oceandog
 Location: California, USA Posts: 644 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 1:20 PM As with anything you read, watch, hear, etc... there is always another point of view! I have read many of the books mentioned. I do eat vegan and yet I am "fluffy"! My issues are leg injuries and 2, yes 2 jobs both sitting. I can tell you a few things that work for me. Limit fats of ANY kind. Eat lots of whole grains and whole veggies. Now from what I remember about eating meat, Now as a vegan, I can walk down a produce aisle or a Farmer's market and I find a whole lot more than that. I add in grains, personal favorites are short-grain brown rice and quinoa, loads of veggies or beans (how many different kinds of THOSE are there?) and I am a happy girl. If I could just get off the bum and exercise more I am suspicious my weight would go away. Until I can work 1 job and have a "normal" life and a "normal" place to live I chose to eat as healthy as possible and get busy when I have the opportunity to do so. There are lots of wonderful, knowledgable people here, so post away, check archives to find recipes and we will all help with what we can. Best wishes! Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them. |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2087 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 1:29 PM Oceandog wrote: As with anything you read, watch, hear, etc... there is always another point of view!Best wishes! And sometimes what is best for one is not for another - thus the huge variety of viewpoints. I know, for example, that I can eat a "portion" of brown rice but absolutely no potato, while other diabetics I know are the reverse (they can eat a "portion" of baked potato but no rice ever). For me to say "no potatoes, only rice" would do this other person a disservice and vice versa. Starting from a base point (which is why the kickstart is good - it creates a basepoint) and then tweaking here and there as needed seems to make the most sense. For instance, there are times when my 12 yr old heading into puberty son just can't eat enough beans, nuts and other plant proteins to satisfy his growing needs. So, we'll add in eggs and cheese (for him). And, if that still doesn't suffice, he'll add in fish of some sort (he'll request it). By and large, he's quite happy on a vegan menu (ever see a 12 yr old light up with glee when you pick up the rainbow chard in the produce department?!) but sometimes the amount he can eat and what his body needs aren't always in synch. KWIM? --Deb R |
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mollyhorn
 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:11 PM Madcat wrote: I will go a step further and say after reading "The China Study" and seeing one of the food list of foods to minimize and not in the eliminate category was fish I was confused. Nuts and avocados where on the "eat all you want" list. Then there was the article about vegans in the magazine "Men's Journal" about Tony Gonzalez (sp?) tight end for the Atlanta Falcons who was told by T. Colin Campbell to eat fish to maintain his muscle mass and I think he said lean beef (not sure and can't find the magazine). I thought "The China Study" was suppose to be the bible for going vegan, at least that's what I was told.  Hey Madcat, The China Study is a very informative book and all health-vegans can learn a lot from it, but it is by no means a bible for veganism. The "eat all you want" list, for example, should be taken as "eat all you want within reason and don't be an idiot about it." The book is NOT a nutrition textbook, and it doesn't teach one how to eat. If you eat 13 avocados everyday, you're going to get fat. That said, I seriously doubt Dr. Campbell would ever recommend beef to anyone. It's just not his style. Fish, however, maybe... Dr. Campbell is a health-vegan, as opposed to an ethical vegan. Molly Horn |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2087 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:15 PM yeah, some people go overboard "Oh, such and such 'expert' said I can eat as much of this as I want" Probably not - too much of anything is not good. Too much oxygen, too much water as well as too little of each, can be deadly. There's "just the right amount" for each person. All anyone can say is "based on what I know about myself, what I've studied about that thing, it appears that that thing is generally good/not so good for most people" - for some people, a glass of red wine with dinner is really good for their health; for others not so much (whether because of alcohol issues, reflux issues, or other dietary, health, or lifestyle situations). --Deb R |
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| Susan Levin
Joined: 12/26/09 Posts: 1212 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:22 PM The article in question from Men's Journal does have Dr. Campbell trying everything he knew to get the NFL player to gain back some weight he lost going vegan, a comparatively high weight, and to maintain that weight gain. I say high relative to OUR lives, probably not for an NFL player who is getting pounded for a living. At first, Campbell suggested concentrated protein shakes using brown rice powder and various seeds like hemp seeds. When it wasn't working, Dr. Campbell conceded to the small amounts of animal protein for Gonzalez (although Gonzalez does sell a vegan protein powder online). In some ways, it supports what we've been saying. The easiest and fastest way to put on weight is via animal products. If that's your goal... Susan Levin, MS, RD |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2087 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:24 PM yeah, NFL players and such have a whole different set of nutritional issues to deal with - lots more calorie burning muscle tissue, lots more vigorous exercise, lots more healing to do, etc. --Deb R |
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| Oceandog
Location: California, USA Posts: 644 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:29 PM Hmm based on this conversation, I think I have an idea what works best for me.... I will skip the NFL AND it's beatings and skip the fish too! Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them. |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2087 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:30 PM Oceandog wrote: Hmm based on this conversation, I think I have an idea what works best for me.... I will skip the NFL AND it's beatings and skip the fish too! |
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| Oceandog
Location: California, USA Posts: 644 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:55 PM It has been my experience that dislocated knees and broken bones are quite painful and I wish to keep this from happening again. So what do you say Deb, a good book and some tea for us?? Maybe a foot rub? Okay I am in anyway! Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them. |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2087 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 4:59 PM Oceandog wrote: It has been my experience that dislocated knees and broken bones are quite painful and I wish to keep this from happening again. So what do you say Deb, a good book and some tea for us?? Maybe a foot rub? Okay I am in anyway! Yeah I'm not too eager to have my femur and my shin bones passing each other at the knee again. I'll take a cup of chamomile... Now I'm heading home where hubby is cooking up quinoa and red lentils, and sauteeing up some rainbow chard, with onions and garlic. |
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| Oceandog
Location: California, USA Posts: 644 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 5:06 PM Yes my leg bones have traveled the same path! I will be heading home soon to start job #2 and I do not have a wonderful hubby, much less one that is making me dinner. It will be a can of beans or McDougall's soup for dinner for me. Drive safely! Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them. |
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| Oceandog
Location: California, USA Posts: 644 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 5:06 PM Yes my leg bones have traveled the same path! I will be heading home soon to start job #2 and I do not have a wonderful hubby, much less one that is making me dinner. It will be a can of beans or McDougall's soup for dinner for me. Drive safely! Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them. |
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Wild4Stars
 Location: Florida Posts: 832 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 7:16 PM mollyhorn wrote: Madcat wrote: I will go a step further and say after reading "The China Study" and seeing one of the food list of foods to minimize and not in the eliminate category was fish I was confused. Nuts and avocados where on the "eat all you want" list. Then there was the article about vegans in the magazine "Men's Journal" about Tony Gonzalez (sp?) tight end for the Atlanta Falcons who was told by T. Colin Campbell to eat fish to maintain his muscle mass and I think he said lean beef (not sure and can't find the magazine). I thought "The China Study" was suppose to be the bible for going vegan, at least that's what I was told. Hey Madcat, The China Study is a very informative book and all health-vegans can learn a lot from it, but it is by no means a bible for veganism. The "eat all you want" list, for example, should be taken as "eat all you want within reason and don't be an idiot about it." The book is NOT a nutrition textbook, and it doesn't teach one how to eat. If you eat 13 avocados everyday, you're going to get fat. That said, I seriously doubt Dr. Campbell would ever recommend beef to anyone. It's just not his style. Fish, however, maybe... Dr. Campbell is a health-vegan, as opposed to an ethical vegan. I realize that people are vegan for different reasons. However it seems to me that vegan is vegan and whatever the reason you are vegan you wouldn't be eating meat or fish. Am I wrong? Do health-vegans eat fish? How can they call themselves vegans?? Vikki ~ Wild4Stars@gmail.com |
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| mollyhorn
Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: the more I read, the more I am confused... Posted Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 7:48 PM Hey Vikki, Case in point: President Clinton's "vegan" diet, wherein he still eats fish occasionally. The media is calling him a vegan, but I doubt any member of PETA would agree with that. I've also seen many health-vegans who still take fish oil supplements, use products that contain animal by-products (such as gelatin), and use products that have been tested on animals. It is, more definitively, the difference between eating a plant-based diet and living a vegan lifestyle. Both result in less suffering for the animals and improved health for humans. But I consider myself a (still very new and still learning) ethical vegan, and I have seen a few health-vegans who are sometimes more willing to sacrifice their ethics in favor of the health-fad-of-the-moment. That said, ethical vegans are usually less healthy, more prone to eating junk-food type diets rich in fat and sugar. I'm trying hard to be both ethically sound and healthy, which can be hard to defend sometimes. Molly Horn |
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, most people at chicken, turkey, fish, pork and beef. If you add in a few varieties of fish you might have 10 - 15 choices.
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