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| Forums: September 2010 Kickstart Forum Archive: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified | |||
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 7:49 PM I understand that a lot of people trying the vegan kickstart program for the first time might be overwhelmed with information and find it difficult to follow the diet in its absolute form. But suggestions for dining out like, "Many menu items can be made vegan by simply leaving off eggs, cheese, or other dairy products," are extremely simplistic and misleading, and are not helpful for people who really want to learn how to become vegan or vegetarian. If you order rice in many Mexican restaurants, it has been made with chicken stock. If you order beans in many Mexican restaurants, they have been made with lard or a ham hock. Not only are your dining out tips not helpful for new vegetarians, but they are WAY off base for vegans. Those of us who have been at this for a while understand how to look for the hidden animal-based ingredients in prepared and processed foods, but those new to vegetarianism and veganism do not. For example, miso soup in Japanese restaurants is almost always made with bonito (fish) flakes. Many Vietnamese menu items contain fish sauce. These are no-brainers that every vegetarian should be aware of. If PCRM and NutritionMD.org (whose pages on dining out are linked to from the 21-day meal plan) are committed to helping your readers become educated about a healthy vegetarian or vegan diet, please give them the information they really need to make good choices when eating out. LB |
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| Susan Levin
Joined: 12/26/09 Posts: 1191 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 8:04 PM For a lot of folks, this is an overwhelming dietary shift. So, for most, I don't think our program is oversimplified at all. But I am certainly open to people with more knowledge offering extra detailed information. However, it would probably be better received if stated in a positive tone. There are people on this forum who have been vegan for years and are able to share specifics with "newbies" in a very respectful manner. And I really appreciate their help. Susan Levin, MS, RD |
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 8:14 PM I completely agree that this is an overwhelming project for a lot of people. I don't believe anything I said is disrespectful; I'm merely stating facts. The tips are indeed oversimplified and maybe well suited to people trying to cut out meat, but not necessarily helpful for people who are trying cut out animal products, which is the definition of a vegan diet. I'm not trying to start an argument, rather hoping for more complete information for the people who want and need it. |
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Wild4Stars
 Location: Florida Posts: 832 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 8:35 PM I've been vegetarian since 2002 and I have no doubt that in my early days there were some things that were not truly vegetarian. It was a learning process and I learned as I went. I've just recently gone vegan (January 2010) and I'm clear that I'm 100% vegan at home. Eating out or at someone else's home is another story. I'm also sure that as I learn more, experience more, I'll find that I have eaten some things that aren't truly vegan. When I know better, I do better. I am vegan to the absolute best of my ability. The day will come, with experience, that I will know 100% of the time what to choose, what to avoid, but for now I just know that I have chosen a vegan path and "MY PATH IS ONE OF PROGRESS, NOT PERFECTION." I think PCRM has done a great job of introducing veganism for beginners. This is my 3rd or 4th kickstart and I have learned new things every time. The first couple, I didn't quite make it 100%. January, I felt I could make that commitment, and I did. I've learned things from new people and from "old pros." For me it's like learning any new skill, practice make perfect and I'm still practicing. Vikki ~ Wild4Stars@gmail.com |
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| changing
Joined: 09/09/10 Posts: 22 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 8:48 PM I have truly appreciated the information that the kickstart team has provided. However, I would also like to learn more about hidden animal products to avoid when eating out. Just as the kickstart warns about hidden fats in foods, please also warn about hidden animal products for those who are making a moral choice as well as a commitment to better health. |
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mollyhorn
 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 8:48 PM I agree wholeheartedly with Susan and with Wild4Stars. When I was first starting out as a vegan, it was the best I could do to just not order a meat- or cheese-based dish. Expecting a brand-new vegan to interrogate a waiter about fish stock or ham pieces is not only overly demanding of that new vegan, it also adds to the stereotype that vegans are high-maintenance, demanding and hard-to-deal-with. I agree that the original poster's message had a somewhat negative tone. That's how it read to me, and I know all those tips... it still came across as slightly critical. We should be encouraging new vegans with positive, helpful, affirming messages, not criticizing PCRM for their attempts to put forth a good message. As these new vegans become more experienced, they will naturally want to learn more about animal ingredients, and will therefore begin to read literature about how to look for ingredients when dining out, etc. Just like it was for all the rest of us. Let's encourage them, and support PCRM, not criticize. If you have knowledge of good resources for new vegans, please post them! That alone would be a huge help to all of us. Molly Horn |
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 8:50 PM @Wild4Stars, I love your motto and I completely agree. I've been vegetarian for 21 years and still find it very difficult to commit to a completely vegan diet, but I'm getting better all the time. Back in 1989 there were very few resources for us and no Internet! We've come a long way. |
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| VeganInTheRough
Joined: 08/30/10 Posts: 37 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 9:01 PM I agree about the learning process and eating out. I have been a vegetarian for a while and it has only been in the last 12 months that I have gotten really good at questioning everything. I did think it was maybe a little too simple when I first looked at the suggestions but then realized that you have to meet someone where they are at. My husband and I continue to argue over honey. He is ok eating it, I choose not to. Lesley www.veganintherough.com
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 9:23 PM @VeganInTheRough, what's made with duck feathers? That sounds gross if it's food! My husband is a bit of the "don't ask, don't tell" type of vegetarian. He will assume something is veg rather than ask about it. I don't mind grilling a waiter. You do have to pick your battles. I gave up all leather many years ago, but I still have a hard time finding good quality, comfortable non-leather shoes. So my compromise is to have some leather shoes, but buy ones that last forever so I don't have to buy shoes very often. |
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| mollyhorn
Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 10:57 PM L-cysteine is an ingredient used in baking as a dough conditioner, which is usually what it's listed as on food labels. Almost all processed baked goods contain a "dough conditioner," and it's almost always l-cysteine. The ingredient can be sourced from duck feathers, human hair (usually from China), or synthetically. It is harder, though not more expensive, to create the synthetic version, so most companies use the human or animal source. Many "casual" vegans still consume processed bread products, choosing to live by a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Molly Horn |
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 11:01 PM Wow, that's some great info. Thanks. |
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| mollyhorn
Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 11:35 PM Vegan Outreach has an excellent essay written by their co-founder Matt Ball called "How Vegan? Ingredients vs. Results," which addresses the topic of the minuscule animal ingredients we encounter each day in our lives. I highly encourage everyone to read it, (and to read as much of Vegan Outreach's other literature as you're willing – they are an incredible resource for ethical vegans). Molly Horn |
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Monday, September 13, 2010 at 11:56 PM This is part of the reason I've had a hard time going completely vegan. It's always seemed so all-consuming. Asking a waiter if there's chicken stock in the rice is one manageable thing, but the minutiae of all the possibilities of animal suffering is exhausting to deal with. As I said, we pick our battles. mollyhorn wrote: Vegan Outreach has an excellent essay written by their co-founder Matt Ball called "How Vegan? Ingredients vs. Results," which addresses the topic of the minuscule animal ingredients we encounter each day in our lives. I highly encourage everyone to read it, (and to read as much of Vegan Outreach's other literature as you're willing – they are an incredible resource for ethical vegans).
http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2072 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 11:47 AM lbraith: you'd "grill" a waiter - I don't think waiters are a vegan choice --Deb |
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| agie
Joined: 09/06/10 Posts: 27 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 11:56 AM I think that everyone makes a choice. I have made a choice to eliminate all animal products from every area of my life. Most of it, I have done for my health alone and not for the impact on the environment...that is just an added bonus. Having been a newbie once, it is not about perfection and I think that what the 21-day kickstart is doing is revolutionary. Sure, for seasoned vets their are "mistakes" in their approach but for the most part they are encouraging a dialogue and starting people on a good pathway. We are all smart individuals and it has taken us more than 21-days to perfect our vegan diets. I think that one program cannot possibly do it all in such a short time but what they ARE doing is helpful and amazing to everyone who is truly looking to do this for life. Because of all the possible areas that animal products can be hidden, I choose to only eat at home. I currently am staying in a city where veggie restaurants do not exist, so when I go to my hometown where vegans/veggies run rampant, it is a real treat. I do not like to inconvenience myself nor the restaurant. I do not believe that people should change because I have... |
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| aleta
Joined: 01/07/10 Location: Claremont, CA Posts: 153 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 1:15 PM Wild4Stars wrote: I've been vegetarian since 2002 and I have no doubt that in my early days there were some things that were not truly vegetarian. It was a learning process and I learned as I went. I've just recently gone vegan (January 2010) and I'm clear that I'm 100% vegan at home. Eating out or at someone else's home is another story. I'm also sure that as I learn more, experience more, I'll find that I have eaten some things that aren't truly vegan. When I know better, I do better. I am vegan to the absolute best of my ability. The day will come, with experience, that I will know 100% of the time what to choose, what to avoid, but for now I just know that I have chosen a vegan path and "MY PATH IS ONE OF PROGRESS, NOT PERFECTION." I think PCRM has done a great job of introducing veganism for beginners. This is my 3rd or 4th kickstart and I have learned new things every time. The first couple, I didn't quite make it 100%. January, I felt I could make that commitment, and I did. I've learned things from new people and from "old pros." For me it's like learning any new skill, practice make perfect and I'm still practicing. Here here! I a with you. It is a process and we are all just trying to get through the day. I did feel that there was a bad tone too from the first poster. 
aleta |
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| soon2BVeg
Joined: 08/24/10 Posts: 225 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 2:29 PM Having gone out with my vegetarian husband for dinner for the past 12 years, I can tell you it can be quite stressful to try to find a place which will accommodate your needs. I can't tell you how many times my husband has been asked by wait staff, upon asking what vegetarian options might exist, "Well, do you eat fish?" Um, no ... if he ate fish, he would not be a "vegetarian." And I was told by the owner of a B&B that she could easily accommodate vegetarians, but that vegans are a huge pain in the neck. My brother-in-law was told, when planning his wife's 50th birthday dinner at a nice restaurant, that there was a vegetarian option. That vegetarian option turned out to consist of a plate of spaghetti with a little pile of vegetables on top. No seasoning or sauce. I didn't see the bill, but I'll bet they charged my brother-in-law $15 or so for that pathetic offering. Don't make a New Year's Resolution...make a Decision! |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2072 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 2:35 PM Yeah, some places can be really hard to deal with - those are places we no longer patronize. There are others that will go to lengths to try to accommodate things. What gets even more frustrating, though, is trying to get a vegetarian (much less vegan) offering that is also low carb/low glycemic/low fat. A big plate of pasta (most likely white flour) with veggies just doesn't cut it. On the bright side, though, by not eating out at restaurants nearly as much as we used to, we can afford to explore all sorts of new foods that might otherwise not fit in the budget. --Deb |
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 3:05 PM I don't know, Deb. I've had some pretty robotic waiters. Bugsmom wrote: lbraith: you'd "grill" a waiter - I don't think waiters are a vegan choice
 --Deb |
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| lbraith
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 14 |
RE: Vegan "dining out" options are oversimplified Posted Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 3:16 PM If we don't inconvenience a restaurant from time to time, we will be stuck eating at home forever, and restaurants will never have to change to accommodate us. I consider it part of who I am as a vegetarian to be out in the world living my life the way I want to live it, which includes eating out sometimes 3-4 times a week. I do ask questions and joke about being a troublemaker with the waiter, so they can see I have a sense of humor about it. There are plenty of places I'll no longer go because they don't get it. On the other hand, there are places that have made sincere efforts to change their practices and I'm happy to support them and acknowledge their efforts. It's about being assertive, straightforward, respectful and constructive, and standing up for what you believe in. Who's going to make things change if we don't do it ourselves? agie wrote: I do not like to inconvenience myself nor the restaurant.
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