Forums: January 2010 Kickstart Forum Archive: Essential nutrients
Created on: 01/13/10 04:28 PM Views: 4669 Replies: 20
banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 4:28 PM Vegan Vitamin B12 sources What do vegan eat to get their vit D during winter months for those living in latitudes north of SJ CA? What about long chain omega3 like DHA and EPA? Will the metabolic pathways for ALA provide sufficient DHA and EPA?
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shanna Joined: 12/30/09 Posts: 287	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 4:39 PM These questions have been covered in other threads (as well as in a couple of the videos). You can use the search function for the threads, but all the info is also available via the FAQ pages under Resources here: http://kickstartdev.pcrm.org/resources/index.cfm B12 fact page: http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/b12.html Omega/EFA fact page: http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/essential_fatty_acids.html
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 4:51 PM Thankyou Shanna for pointing me to those links. Still some questions remain are the Vit D as well as the sufficiency of the conversion of ALA (vegan sources)to DHA and EPA which the body uses. The body cannot use ALA. The metabolic pathways for ALA to DHA and EPA is complex and requires several enzymes. It looks like we may have to buy expensive supplements as suggested by the article.
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Susan Levin Joined: 12/26/09 Posts: 1191	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 5:03 PM banpwong wrote: Thankyou Shanna for pointing me to those links. Still some questions remain are the Vit D as well as the sufficiency of the conversion of ALA (vegan sources)to DHA and EPA which the body uses. The body cannot use ALA. The metabolic pathways for ALA to DHA and EPA is complex and requires several enzymes. It looks like we may have to buy expensive supplements as suggested by the article. I'm stealing this from one of my earlier posts - I think it can address your question: Omega-3s are certainly anti-inflammatories, which is important for heart disease as heart disease is an inflammatory response. But I argue to first focus on the problem, not the bandaid. Taking fish oil, in my opinion, is like putting gum in a dam. You're not working on what may be putting you at high risk for heart disease in the first place. In this case, what promotes the heart disease/inflammation? Answer: fat, cholesterol, overweight/obesity, for some sodium, lifestyle (smoking, exercise). Let's work on those. And if you are doing the Kickstart then that's exactly what you are doing. You've gotten animal products out of the diet, by far the number once source of saturated fat in the diet and the only source of cholesterol. Kudos. Now see how much fat you are consuming on your vegan diet plan. This probably won't be fat in your whole foods, but rather the oils and margarines added to those foods. The more you get those fats down, the better your ratio of omega-3s to all other fats. Plant foods will have the perfect ratio to allow the omega-3s to convert efficiently to EPA and DHA. The fish have done this converting for you in their bodies. But by taking advantage of their conversions, you are allowing yourself not to be the efficient machine you could be by having a low fat diet. Taking an omega-3 supplement may slow down the progression of plaque, but a lifestyle change will reverse it. If you feel like you have the best diet you could possibly live with, and somehow your blood labs aren't where you want them to be, then I would think about taking a EPA/DHA/omega-3 supplement. There are vegan versions. As for vitamin D, here are some of my other posts: It's very difficult to get from food. Vitamin D is a bit of a misnomer as it acts more like a hormone than a vitamin. It's something that is activated in your skin by the sun. More evidence that humans were not meant to sit at desks all day in cubicles! Whether you get enough sun activation or not, I recommend you go for a test and see what your levels are before supplementation. Then you and your healthcare provider can monitor the levels and adjust supplements as needed. and ... here are some details as we do know them as stated by the National Institutes of Health (this is a long post, sorry): Most people meet their vitamin D needs through exposure to sunlight. Season, geographic latitude, time of day, cloud cover, smog, skin melanin content, and sunscreen are among the factors that affect UV radiation exposure and vitamin D synthesis. The UV energy above 42 degrees north latitude (a line approximately between the northern border of California and Boston) is insufficient for cutaneous vitamin D synthesis from November through February; in far northern latitudes, this reduced intensity lasts for up to 6 months. In the United States, latitudes below 34 degrees north (a line between Los Angeles and Columbia, South Carolina) allow for cutaneous production of vitamin D throughout the year. Complete cloud cover reduces UV energy by 50%; shade reduces it by 60%. UVB radiation does not penetrate glass, so exposure to sunshine indoors through a window does not produce vitamin D. Sunscreens with a sun protection factor of 8 or more appear to block vitamin D-producing UV rays, although in practice people generally do not apply sufficient amounts, cover all sun-exposed skin, or reapply sunscreen regularly. Skin likely synthesizes some vitamin D even when it is protected by sunscreen as typically applied. The factors that affect UV radiation exposure and research to date on the amount of sun exposure needed to maintain adequate vitamin D levels make it difficult to provide general guidelines. It has been suggested by some vitamin D researchers, for example, that approximately 5-30 minutes of sun exposure between 10 AM and 3 PM at least twice a week to the face, arms, legs, or back without sunscreen usually lead to sufficient vitamin D synthesis. Sorry for any overlap of information. Susan Levin, MS, RD PCRM Director of Nutrition Education
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:02 PM Susan, thank you for your informative response. I am by no mean suggesting using fish oil supplements for DHA and EPA. I am currently using flax seeds which I grind fresh everyday which I add to my mixed vege-berry smoothie to get the consistency of a yogurt based smoothie and get my ALA that way. My concern is the conversion from ALA to DHA and EPA as it is a complex metabolic pathway. Also how much flax seeds will supply sufficient ALA for the DHA/EPA needs of the body. As for Vit D I test for it 3 times a year. I do understand the risks of overdosing. I am for one who would stay away from supplementing if sun exposure alone works for me. I tested way low especially in winter months. Last summer I tanned myself by basking in the sun for between 30min to an hour everyday without sun screen and I tested my D level in late summer thinking that I am going to be at a good level- I was still clinically low so my doctor put me on a weekly 50K IU for 3 months and at the end of which my level was at low 30ng/mL. Sun exposure does not work for everyone but supplementation needs to be closely monitored. I asked the father of Vit D researcher Dr. Holick about sun exposure and he confirmed my findings that if you live North of latitude 37deg you have to have noon sun exposure to get enough D. You get nothing in winter at those latitudes even if you sun bath all day in the winter sun. I have resorted to supplementing my D with 2KIU daily in winter to maintain my levels above 30 and hope to achieve 50-80 and it does not look like a vegan diet will supply sufficient Vit D to maintain 25OH D level that is needed for good health.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:57 PM Vitamin D has been recategorized as a steroid. If you have immune system dysfunction, vitamin D allows bacteria to hijack your immune system, called TH1 inflammation. For more info, www.curemyTh1.comor www.marshallprotocol.com. I have been avoiding vit D for two years and have been healing my thyroid issues in the process from using the marshall protocol (which is being used to treat a variety if diseases). Marshalll's discoveries about vit d and the immune system are monumental. My vitamin d is at 6 ng/ml and I am doing better than ever.. You will find conflicting research about vit d, mostly pro from those most benefitting from its sale and dairy.
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Susan Levin Joined: 12/26/09 Posts: 1191	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 7:58 PM I totally understand. NO diet alone is likely to get your D levels up to normal. Your healthcare provider is right to prescribe a supplement. Remember, even cow's milk is supplemented with vitamin D. Susan Levin, MS, RD PCRM Director of Nutrition Education
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shanna Joined: 12/30/09 Posts: 287	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 7:59 PM
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 10:40 PM Goobygirl, thanks for the links to marshall protocol. I did remeber reading about it and also the numerous flaws in his protocol. The information I got was from peer reviewed papers from several journals and the data from several papers were pretty clear that Vit D level at 50 to 80 is optimal for reducing your risk for numerous chronic diseases which include cancer, hypertension, heart disease etc. So far I haven't come across any paper besides the marshall protocol that is contrary to the data presented in the numerous papers that support keeping the level at 50-80ng/mL for optimal health. If you find some peer reviewed papers that contradict this data please point me to it, I would like to read it. It is true that the vit D makers are bribing a lot of scientists. The one thing I didn't check is whether the authors of the papers were in anyway connected to the vit manufacturers.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 1:19 AM I believe there are links/papers to share with you, but I think more of the scientific papers maybe found on www.bacteriality.com. I only have access through my iphone now so a bit hard to find the links right now.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 1:31 AM Vitamin D council researchers driving force behind many published papers re vitamin D. Go about halfway down page: http://bacteriality.com/2009/08/10/iom/
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 6:39 PM Goobygirl, it is highly recommended you visit: http://www.grassrootshealth.net/ for additional information regarding this important subject. I visited the sites you suggested and found 4 peer reviewed papers: 1. Vitamin D: the alternative hypothesis - Authors claim that "the literature has been nearly unequivocal in its support for vitamin D supplementation in autoimmune disease,but the factors dictating the autoimmune disease process are not empirically self-evident. In this case, it is possible that the statistical analysis and studies on which they are based are misleading, and a reassessment may be warranted." I found one graph that seem to support the author's claims - "Depiction of effect of vitamin D on chronic diseases" shows 2 graphs with blank axes, with no indication of the magnitude. Single point data with no variance and regression analysis with indication of goodness of regression fit, seems more like manufactured data! No other data presented in the whole paper, merely criticism of the data others has presented that included the regression analysis including R-squared (fit confidence) analysis. I would have more faith in the papers which are pro boosting 25OH D level due to the volumes of data that were presented in their papers. 2. Autoimmune disease in the era of the metagenome - no data presented in this paper! 3. Vitamin D metabolites as clinical markers in autoimmune and chronic disease - Challenges the claims of 25OH D as an indicator of vitamin D storage and vitamin D receptor (VDR) mediated control of calcium metabolism and innate immunity. All the data presented did not show what is wrong with the claim. They did not contradict the claims of improve innate immunity with vit D level though. The conclusion was written in the subjunctive mood which is another indication that the authors were not sure of their own claims! The 4th paper only recommends testing for both 25-D and 1,25-D but did not suggest keeping vit D level low. I did not see data that support their claim which increases cost without demonstrateable benefits. These papers should not have been accepted for publication for lack of data and data analysis, if the paper selection committee did their job. All in all if I were you I would start my research over and seriously look at the data that is so widely available from many universities coast to coast. A good place to start is the above link which is represented by many of the nation's top research universities and medical school which I put more credence than on any one person or entity. That being said it is not the universities but the data they presented with analysis for trends and the fit confidence level indicated that draws my support.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 7:57 PM Thanks for the advice..I do appreciate it. Having been on the protocol over two years and been able to significantly reduce my thyroid dosage (400 mcg of T3 to 100) and being able yo clear myself of mucus in my lungs i felt rattling around un there for years, I prefer to stay with what is working for me. I will not take a secocortisoid (vit D) which has the potential to affect my hormones in untold/ multitudinal of ways.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 8:10 PM The proof is empirical/deductive not statistical/inductive. I would also view the video by dr. Marshall in his speech given to the FDA in order to understand the VDR better. I do undestand some of the medical reasons behind the protocol, but its not my forte. For me, the proof is in the pudding..i am not using sleep meds, pain killers, antidepressants, etc., and have been able to heal my thyroid issues greatly. My own doctor starting the treatment for himself was also a good indicator that there is validity to the treatment. I have medical issues that i could legitimately be on a plethora of drugs for and I eschew them in favor of a treatment that works for me.
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 10:56 PM Statistical/inductive is empirical/deductive with more data points and the help of statistics to make sense of it all. There will always be outliers that don't fit any trend both with Marshall's protocol as well as conventional medical research. Short of having sufficient data we will never know if our response is an outlier or we are part of the majority. Nobody is going to dissuade you from what works for you but will it work for others? I don't know because I have not seen compelling data other than you and may be another you said? Would I try it probably not. Anyways thanks for all the links and let us move on from here and may be add other contents to this knowledge base or gather from others.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 11:44 PM There is an infinite set of data points...so it is impossible to prove a2 + b2 = c2 with inductive model. Clinical data is belief... It can be a strong belief... But with clinical data there will always be (n) people it will not apply to. The MP is a molecular model regarding receptors in tH1 disease that must apply to every human.
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Monday, January 18, 2010 at 12:15 AM Even if an infinite set of data points exists in any clinical study you won't have the time or resources to harvest them all so you collect enough data that is statistically representative and apply statistics to make sense of the data. All natural processes whether it is TH1 disease or other diseases are statistical events. For example 1 in 4 people in the West will die from cancer but the other 3 will not even though no intervention to prevent the disease is exercised.The one who will die will require a lot of interventions to change her/his predisposition to the disease. The norm is no disease as it is the majority while the outlier is the one. In east the odds of dying from cancer is much lower due to a different lifestyle which this vegan program is all about changing the expression of your genes to change your odds for the disease but it will not work 100% because it is a statistical event but you know your odds will be better all because of the scientific data with the help of statistics provides us the confidence level. If it were not so then we might as well continue to feast on the flesh and all the sweet refine foods we can get our hands on. Without statistic yes you are right it will be impossible to understand data that is taken from any natural processes. I have been using statistics in data analysis for the past 25 years and I can vouch that it works.
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Monday, January 18, 2010 at 2:21 AM Ok, no hard feelings, but you are arguing that bayesian (probability based) inductive reasoning is superior to deductive reasoning. First year logic teaches this just ain't so (i.e. Black swan...)
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banpwong Joined: 01/10/10 Posts: 24	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Monday, January 18, 2010 at 11:59 PM I highly recommend anyone who wants to learn about Marshall Protocol take a look at this paper http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/03/14/Clearing-Up-Confusion-on-Vitamin-D--Why-I-Dont-Recommend-the-Marshall-Protocol.aspx Trevor Marshall is not a physician and received no training in medical science nor in biology. He is suggesting to use antibiotics in pulse mode (super bugs in the making) and angiotensin 2 receptor blockers - sounds dangerous!
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goobygirl Joined: 12/31/09 Posts: 70	RE: Essential nutrients Posted Tuesday, January 19, 2010 at 12:18 AM Yeah....super dangerous... That is why I am doing better and why Dr Marshall, a medical researcher, no longer has sarcoidosis, a disease that usually kills its victims within 10-20 years. I guess when someone shows you a logical fallacy, you resort to ad hominem attacks. You have given no proof, statistical or otherwise, that pulsed antibiotics cause "super bugs." I am finished with this thread. It has nothing to do with vegan eating and is unproductive.
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