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| Forums: September 2011 Kickstart Forum: Why is Honey Vegan? | |||
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| VeganLady
Joined: 09/05/11 Posts: 3 |
Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Tuesday, September 6, 2011 at 11:20 PM ok, I get the reason honey is vegan because bees make it, but is there a health reason why no honey? is honey any different than sugar or maple syrup? just wondering! thanks for your help! |
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| SpongeBobFishpants
Joined: 04/03/11 Posts: 86 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Tuesday, September 6, 2011 at 11:37 PM I have read multiple papers and handouts as to why honey is not considered vegan. The problem is that they all come down to humans "taking advantage of bees" but provide no concrete example of how this harms the bees in any way. At least the ones that I have read. Even my son who is an avid vegan and will not eat honey can only tell me that he has heard this reasoning but cannot provide any specifics. In light of that I have continued to consume locally produced raw honey for use in baking as well as for health reasons (it helps keep my allergies in check and is a very effective cough suppressant and works effectively as an anti-bacterial agent). Plus, it just plain tastes good and is about as minimally processed as you can get. A spoonfull of good local honey in my morning tea is one of the pleasures in life that help me to remember to be grateful for what I have. It helps keep me mindful of what nature provides us. |
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| donnamae
Joined: 09/01/11 Posts: 35 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 8:13 AM I am very new at vegetarian/vegan/plant based diet eating and so in the learning stage of it all. But I have to admit when I heard that honey was a no no I was really surprised. I didn't see the connection at all. I'm still learning, but I am interested in the answer to this question as well.+ |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2069 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 8:56 AM I think the logic to it runs as follows: honey is made by bees for bees just as cows make milk for baby cows not people. Add to that, unless one is wild foraging, people are setting up the environment to suit themselves, not necessarily what is best for the bees. --Deb R |
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mollyhorn
 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 9:14 AM Correction to original post – Honey is NOT vegan. Deb is right – honey bees who are used for farming honey are literally being USED – they are not allowed to live normal bee lives. Plus, with the incredible threat of Colony Collapse Disorder, we who care about animals must be vigilant in our protection and defense of these delicate creatures. CCD is thought to be caused by the use of pesticides by humans... pesticides we use on our crops and farmland. It could also potentially be caused by mites or bacteria. Why should humans care? Because bees are pollinators. They pollinate all the crops in the world. Without them, our entire food system will collapse. Molly Horn |
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Wild4Stars
 Location: Florida Posts: 832 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 9:20 AM I have heard and read this honey conversation many times since I have been vegan and I'm still confused. Here's my take on the arguments for and against that I have heard. Most ethical vegans are against honey because it is disrupting the bees, it is an animal (insect) product. Ethical vegans won't wear or purchase anything made of leather, silk or wool. Vegans that "eat" vegan for health reasons use honey, wear or purchase leather, silk and wool. That may be a simplistic explanation, and of course, it's just my opinion based on what I've heard and read. Vikki ~ Wild4Stars@gmail.com |
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| VeganLady
Joined: 09/05/11 Posts: 3 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 10:11 AM [quote="mollyhorn"]Correction to original post – Honey is NOT vegan. thanks for the correction - I knew what I meant when i wrote it but you are absolutely correct - it's on the what not to eat list! |
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| DianeJ
Joined: 01/01/10 Posts: 134 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 11:01 AM Yes, an interesting thread that, again, raises the question of why we make the choices we make. This also speaks to the thread on the comfort levels of being called a "vegan". There are basically two reasons for eating a "vegan" diet: Those that follow plant-based, whole foods diets for health reasons generally are not as strict, perhaps allowing for things like honey, maybe a veggie product that contains a tiny bit of dried milk or egg, a veggie soup that may have chicken broth, a pancake out that probably contains dairy; however, making a conscious effort to NOT include in their diets any animal products, but also choosing to only eat those things that are health-supporting, i.e. no refined sugars, flours, trans fats, processed foods, sodas, etc. Certainly many also are supportive of the positive effects this way of eating has on the eco and animal fronts. Both Dr. Bernard and Dr. Campbell (in the China Study) discuss these issues, Dr. Bernard stating that he prefer to use "vegan" as an adjective, i.e.vegan diet, rather than a noun, which tends to describe the person, personality, politics, etc, rather than just the diet they eat. Dr. Campbell's philosophy is basically that, for health reasons,a very tiny amt.of animal product just won't make any difference IF it leads to less overall stress and better compliance to healthy eating. Again, no right or wrong, just some thoughts for those that may be new to this world. |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2069 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 11:10 AM DianeJ wrote: no refined sugars, flours, trans fats, processed foods, sodas, etc. Certainly many also are supportive of the positive effects this way of eating has on the eco and animal fronts. This mentions another 'food' that is on the borderline - refined sugars. Aside from the health issues for the moment, most white sugar is processed (from what I've gathered) using bone char - that is, burnt animal bone. Thus, it falls on the technically non-vegan side of things. Many other types of processed foods (sodas, condiments, etc) use refined sugars as well, so they'd be lumped into this category of non-vegan by virtue of using a non-vegan ingredient. But, again, this is one of those 'grayish' areas that each decides for one's self. --Deb R |
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| SpongeBobFishpants
Joined: 04/03/11 Posts: 86 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 1:10 PM Sadly, I find no more information here that clears the topic up for me. I see myself as someone who chooses this lifestyle for both health reasons AND a desire to reduce my part in the abuse of animals. I see that people feel very passionate about the issue and I certainly respect that but I don't feel that any concrete example of how consuming honey harms bees is evident. I can see that our industrial Big Ag harms livestock in multiple ways, that has been well documented... feed lots, corn feed, physical abuse, small cages, inhumane slaughtering practices, antibiotics, forcing cows to continue giving milk by use of hormones and taking away the calves but I do not see how this holds the same for honey. The same for Colony Collapse Disorder. I see the problem and concede that it is most likely of human origin but again see no logical connection between overuse of pesticides by Big Ag and how consuming locally produced honey from neighborhood apiaries contributes to the problem. On the contrary, supporting increased colony numbers would seem to be helping not harming. Alas, it turns out the world has inconveniently not sorted itself out into black and white for me again. It seem the universe has no desire to make my life simple. |
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| Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10 Posts: 2069 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM A lot of things aren't b&w alas. I do know that our current generations of domestic honeybees have been bred down in size to fit more into a convenient space. I've got friends who are beekeepers and one is part of a move to reverse that and allow bees to go back to their more "normal" size. One school of thought is that the smaller domestic bees are more susceptible to CCD than wild colonies because of their size (even though wild colonies are also at risk). And, too, the honey and honeycomb removal process generally involves smoking the bees into a stupor so they don't/won't/can't defend themselves and their home. Don't know that inhaling smoke of any sort is all that good for oxygen breathing creatures. And, after all, honey is the winter stores of food for the colony. Taking the honey makes them have to work harder to stock up enough supplies to feed themselves through the colder (no flowers blooming) months. It's like taking the nuts from a squirrel's stash (not just harvesting nuts themselves but actually taking what they've worked for and rely upon). All that said, we do keep a jar of local honey on hand - it's wonderful for winter chapped lips among other things. --Deb R |
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| DianeJ
Joined: 01/01/10 Posts: 134 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 3:40 PM Sometimes you just have to decide based on what you know, or think you know. I eat raw honey. |
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| mollyhorn
Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 582 |
RE: Why is Honey Vegan? Posted Wednesday, September 7, 2011 at 7:20 PM I consider myself "a vegan" for ethical reasons, though I agree with Dr. Barnard that it should be an adjective and not a noun. I am still uncomfortable with labeling myself as such, because of precisely these issues. There are so many things that are out of our control... am I to spend the rest of my life shaking my tiny fists against the sky? I'd rather live my life as humanely as possible, but while not sacrificing my own joy in the process. I tried the total-sacrifice-for-the-animals route at first, and burned out quickly. Now I am much more forgiving in my definition of self. There are those, whom I consider SUPERVEGANS, who eschew any animal ingredient whatsoever – even attempting to avoid driving as to not use the bovine products in car tires. They might avoid sis's birthday cause they're serving cake and it's made of eggs and milk. Most regular vegans fall more along the lines of: Not eating the "May contain traces of milk" in a packaged pretzel. Carmine coloring in a lollipop? Nope, not that one. I am not a supervegan, and I never will be. On my best days, I'm barely even a regular vegan. I have a meat-eating boyfriend and his two kids, and a job that requires me to taste food frequently. I feel like I do well, considering the circumstances, to just avoid major sources of animal products. I'd rather live my life normally, comfortably. If that means that some people would consider me not-vegan because I will eat a cookie that contains eggs if it is offered to me -- I would remind them that maintaining the "pissed-off stuck-up vegan" stereotype does nothing to further our cause. I'd much rather present a face of someone who is caring toward animals, accepting of her own failings, and tolerant toward all. Molly Horn |
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