revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 4:05 AM
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm I've witnessed it myself ... all one has to do is go on a myriad of vegan blogs and website message boards to see what a lot of vegans are eating -- a lot of mock meats & cheeses, and decadent baked goods. I participated in a fund-raising vegan bake sale and was mortified at what people brought. Cupcakes with brown frosting and purple glittery sprinkles were the best seller. I bought a few things from my fellow activists to take home and try, and yikes I felt like I was main-lining sugar. I don't see the draw in these treats. Though I was insecure that what I brought would sell, I was gratified to see that my sugar/fat-free apple oat bran muffins with raisins and walnuts sold out too. One wonders how these vegan hedonists all stay slim ... or if they are really. And even if they are slim, are they healthy in the long-term? I myself, in my 40's and 50's, have had a problem losing weight. whether I was omnivore or vegan ... and knocking myself out at the gym. I've always been at the upper range of my weight allowance, even heavier in my 20's after my mom died. But I'm grateful at least that I never let myself go like a lot of people seem to do. I have lost 20lbs in the last 7 months, but that's only because of a very painful sciatica ordeal involving surgeries and what-not where I have had little appetite and also not in a position to fuss in the kitchen. Actually I'm less interested in weight issues now and more concerned with cancer (which I had 12 yrs ago) and heart disease -- but not even those right now since I am ostensibly healthy -- my immediate complaints are a lot of musculoskeletal issues and a mysteriously high sed rate. I've been on the message board here but, confession, didn't do the kickstart. But participating on the board and scanning the recipes has motivated me to use less and less liquid fats and learn about raw and detoxification. I'll look forward to really doing the kickstart on the next round and warming up to it before then. PS I really hope Bill Clinton takes Dr. McDouggal up on his invitation! http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2010other/news/clinton3.htm
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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Madcat
Joined: 09/07/10
Location: MICHIGAN!!!!
Posts: 61
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 4:19 AM
Just printed out a copy, thanks for posting.
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revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 4:28 AM
Madcat wrote: Just printed out a copy, thanks for posting. You're welcome, fellow night-owl 
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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soon2BVeg
Joined: 08/24/10
Posts: 225
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 10:16 AM
Thanks for posting the "Fat Vegan!" I can so relate to this. I just had my 55th birthday and have been having a terrible time getting even ten pounds off. I believe I need to get more serious about getting the olive oil and other fats out of my diet. I had almonds for my morning snack. I guess that was a mistake. I did make my brown-rice-and-kidney bean lunch salad that I packed for work with fat free balsamic dressing - only 5 calories per serving. I'll be making a homemade fresh tomato sauce to go over our dinner pasta and it will be very hard for me not to saute the garlic and other veggies in olive oil.
Don't make a New Year's Resolution...make a Decision!
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Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10
Posts: 2068
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 10:40 AM
Good point - what do you saute in if you're not using olive oil at all? How do you get the saute texture and flavor of bell peppers and onions and such? A dry skillet will basically fry them. What will keep them from sticking and frying instead of the nice saute texture and flavor? I'd rather not use chemical sprays. Would a spritzer with olive oil (so that it's just a bare spray) work? --Deb
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Oceandog
Joined: 01/10/10
Location: California, USA
Posts: 642
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 10:57 AM
I have dramatically cut out oils in my diet and still struggle with my weight. I saute in broth or water with extra seasonings. I don't miss the oil at all. In fact, I have gotten it down that I have 2 tsp of peanutbutter on toast for a weekend treat, I may have about 1/4 nuts during the week, and I have a few recipes I like that use cashew cream. I still drink a bit of almond milk before my early morning walk and I am not losing. So.... I need to cut all that out. I work 2 jobs and truly don't have much time to cook. This weekend I tried to get some done but it wasn't as low fat as it should have been. So I would imagine I won't lose anything this week. Since this kick start began I lost 3 pounds. I had hoped for much more but I will take the 3 pounds and gently remind myself I am eating very healthy and my body does appreciate the decent food. When I first became vegetarian I ate lots of meat subs, then when I went vegan the first time, lots of dairy subs, then gluten free, same thing. Gluten free items. I finally got it. I don't have to worry about ingredients, be they meat broth, dairy, eggs, wheat... etc IF I eat whole foods. Can't believe it took me that long to get it. Now I rarely eat anything processed, it is "treat" and even then I find I don't enjoy them like I used to. These days a treat is an all fruit smoothie!
Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them.
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revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 11:24 AM
Why is it they are always saying, like in college nutrition classes, if you cut back 3500, or burn 3500 calories in exercise you should lose a pound? It just doesn't work that way. In my 20's I was able to lose 2 lbs. a week like clock-work say on Weight Watchers. Last time I did WW it took me 6 months to lose 10 lbs. And look at how men lose just fine in a steady downward line at any age! What's up with all of that? It's hard to believe that a little olive oil or a treat once in a while with white flour and sugar could hinder weight loss. Frankly I don't believe it. It's something else, what I don't know.
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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Oceandog
Joined: 01/10/10
Location: California, USA
Posts: 642
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 12:04 PM
I don't know and I do tend to get discouraged but the bottom line that I remind myself is that I am (finally) eating healthy. I think I could ignore the weight better if it didn't hurt my knees, but after a few surgeries and such, they are a problem. I am sure if I were to become more active it would help but with 2 jobs and knee/ankle injuries, doesn't seem likely. So I push forward. Even if I only continue to lose 1 pound or so a week, I could live with that. Just keeping steady.
Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them.
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revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 1:27 PM
Oceandog wrote: I don't know and I do tend to get discouraged but the bottom line that I remind myself is that I am (finally) eating healthy. I think I could ignore the weight better if it didn't hurt my knees, but after a few surgeries and such, they are a problem. I am sure if I were to become more active it would help but with 2 jobs and knee/ankle injuries, doesn't seem likely. So I push forward. Even if I only continue to lose 1 pound or so a week, I could live with that. Just keeping steady. Hi Oceandog -- I know full well about chronic pain. After 20+ years of going to osteopaths I'm resigned that they are very limited to help me and so I am exploring other modalities. Recently I started doing a breathwork/meditation technique based on stimulating the vagus nerve which has widespread benefits for the body and mind ... it's called Eiriu Eolas www.eiriu-eolas.com and you can explore the entire video/audio program online for free. I do feel calmer in the short time I've been doing it every night before bed. Some people have said they've lost weight from the increased intake of oxygen/greater lung capacity. I've learned from them about the Far Infrared Sauna and hope to acquire a homemodel (it's a "blanket")someday soon. I also ordered some Magnesium Oil to bathe in (better than Epsom Salts) and I will convey back to you if that makes me feel better. I've been reading how going raw is miraculous, but I just can't wrap my head around doing it yet full-force yet. Except for right at this moment I am making the homemade sauerkraut (probiotics) that Dr. Flora suggested on another thread. Will report back with any good news on my alternative med adventures. 
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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mollyhorn
Joined: 03/03/10
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 582
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 9:09 PM
Hey Revolution, I'm semi-raw (65-85%, depending on the day), and can speak a bit about the "miraculousness" of it. I think it's like the transition to veganism... if you're switching from the SAD to raw foods, then yes, it IS a miracle. But if you're eating a healthy vegan diet already, the change won't be so dramatic. Just like there are junk-food vegans, there are junk-food raw foodists, too. Because raw veg are low in calories, raw foodists focus a LOT on dehydrated sprouted grains, nut butters/patés, added sweeteners, and lots of fruit. The typical diet of a raw foodist contains more fat than you would believe! This is just my experience, but it speaks to what several people have expressed:
I suffer from several autoimmune disorders, including Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. For a couple of years my medication was not adequate and I wasn't exercising enough, and wasn't eating the best I could, and I wasn't losing weight. No matter what I did, I couldn't lose even a single pound! It was really depressing and frustrating. What I learned after years of this is that my disease/medication was part of the problem – once I got an adequate dose, I finally had the energy to exercise. But the main issue was ME. I was not exercising enough, and I wasn't eating the right diet. Sure, I thought I was eating healthy – and to the average person, I was! But after learning as much about nutrition as I have, I know now that my diet was still too heavy in certain things, and too light in others, and it was preventing me from losing weight. When I finally changed my diet enough and started exercising regularly (and I mean really exercising, not just going for walks), I lost weight. (My diet is far different from anyone I know. It is far different from even PCRM's Kickstart plan. If I had to categorize it, I'd say it's closest to Fuhrman's Eat to Live plan, but even that isn't 100% accurate.) I think too many people, myself included, want to blame "something else" for their problems, when they may need to take a look in the mirror. Barring any medical or health issue (of which there are MANY), if someone is not losing weight, it's because they're not doing what it takes to lose the weight. Losing weight, especially for older people, is extremely difficult and people all too often write it off as "too hard" or "my body just won't cooperate." I had the same problem, and have felt those same feelings. I know how painful and frustrating it is. I won't lie and say it was easy. It was not and it still is not. I still hate getting up early to go to the gym. I hate the elliptical machine. I freaking hate exercise and sometimes all I want to do is sleep, and then eat junk food. Hell, I want to eat junk food ALL the time. But I don't. I get up, show up and do my damn workout. I eat the right foods that I know are nourishing and not going to make me fat. And I do not put junk food poison into my body. I do this because I like the RESULTS. I want my body to feel good and perform well, and so I do what it takes to achieve that. Our bodies are machines, and we have to treat them as such. Give them the best fuel, the best maintenance, and the best treatment, and they will give us good health in return.
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Oceandog
Joined: 01/10/10
Location: California, USA
Posts: 642
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Tuesday, September 28, 2010 at 9:22 PM
Molly I wish I could do as well as you! Wow! I can't afford a gym but I do walk everyday. My typical day starts at 5:00 am and ends at about 8 or 9 after my second job. I don't think I would have time for a gym except for weekends even if I could afford it. The walks are also helpful for my dogs to get out. That being said, I am at least 30 more like 40 pounds overweight and you said it... FRUSTRATED. I try to eliminate more and more trying to be able to get some weight off with knee problems and time problems and money problems. Hahaha more excuses? Maybe when I "grow up" I will have determination and discipline to get the job done.
Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them.
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soon2BVeg
Joined: 08/24/10
Posts: 225
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Wednesday, September 29, 2010 at 10:14 AM
I understand the frustration too ... I have ten to fifteen pounds to lose and it's like molasses in January. And yet one restaurant meal or celebration dinner and I can gain back two to three pounds in a single night, which will take me over a month to get back off. Did I mention I just turned 55? Ugh.
Don't make a New Year's Resolution...make a Decision!
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Oceandog
Joined: 01/10/10
Location: California, USA
Posts: 642
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Wednesday, September 29, 2010 at 12:21 PM
I have been careful but yesterday I had a handful of dry cereal (low fat) for a snack and my sister made smoothies as a before bed treat because it was so hot. I gained 1.5 pounds. Sigh.
Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them.
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revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Wednesday, September 29, 2010 at 2:01 PM
Oceandog wrote: I have been careful but yesterday I had a handful of dry cereal (low fat) for a snack and my sister made smoothies as a before bed treat because it was so hot. I gained 1.5 pounds. Sigh. Dear Oceandog -- Please consider not weighing yourself everyday -- maybe once every 2 months or something like that, or AT ALL if possible. Go by the way your clothes fit you. I used to weigh myself everyday and would go up and down (mostly up) for no rhyme or reason. It's terribly frustrating, I know. Finally I just decided to make peace with my metabolism and make peace with my body at whatever weight, knowing that I was doing everything possible to keep it fit and healthy, and I got rid of the scale. One neurosis cured, many more to go! 
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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Oceandog
Joined: 01/10/10
Location: California, USA
Posts: 642
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Wednesday, September 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM
Believe it or not, I have tried that before. When I stopped weighing myself daily in the course of a short period of time I gained a considerable amount of weight that I am currently trying to lose. I weighed 130 in 2004, then 155 in 2005 and it went up from there. I know that I am healthy, just wish I wasn't as plump to go with it. I say healthy with caveat though. I haven't had a cold or flu in over 20 years, but I have scary cholesterol of about 229. And this is from someone who consumed very little dairy for the last 20 years. So hoping I figure something out. It definitely gets harder as you age. Working 2 jobs doesn't help either because both are sedentary. That being said, I do appreciate your thoughts and encouragement!
Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them.
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Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10
Posts: 2068
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 at 2:34 PM
Something that took adjusting for me was that when the dairy and nuts were gone, I needed to ADD calories to avoid going into 'conservation mode' because my body perceived the reduced calorie intake as a 'famine'. When you figure 9 calories per gram for fat compared to 4 calories per gram for carbs and protein, that was a bunch of calories gone. It still (since it's only been 3 1/2 weeks) takes conscious thought to get enough calories into a day. The focus on fresh fruit and veggies and all the good fiber in the carbs (beans, legumes, whole grains) can make it hard to eat enough - I make oatmeal using 1/3 cup of oats and that's plenty (and that's not even one full serving! One full serving of oatmeal is 1/2 cup dry) Some days, I do fall back to a handful of almonds if necessary in the evening. All this just to say that if you're doing the good stuff and weight is not dropping off, it might be helpful to keep rough track of calories to see where you might want to ADD some fruit or something extra to your day. --Deb
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Oceandog
Joined: 01/10/10
Location: California, USA
Posts: 642
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 at 2:38 PM
It is always a tricky thing calories. If we eat too much we gain. We are supposed to reduce to lose. But if we reduce too much we "save". I don't seem to find the balance most days!
Always offer kindness and a soft word to the beings around you; You do not know their journey. Your words can be the hug they need or the shove that breaks them.
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Bugsmom
Joined: 09/13/10
Posts: 2068
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 at 3:41 PM
And same applies with fluid as well - if you don't get enough fluid in, you'll retain whatever you do get. So, adding fluid will actually reduce water retention (assuming there are no other medical issues causing the retention). --Deb
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revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 at 7:15 PM
mollyhorn wrote: Hey Revolution, Hay MollyI'm semi-raw (65-85%, depending on the day), and can speak a bit about the "miraculousness" of it. I think it's like the transition to veganism... if you're switching from the SAD to raw foods, then yes, it IS a miracle. But if you're eating a healthy vegan diet already, the change won't be so dramatic. Well I guess that's a good sign for a vegan ... it means one's body is getting more of what it needed than when it was on an omni diet. Going raw would be the optimal level of nutrition. Then again, I'm sure there's anti-proponents of raw too. You can go crazy with all the diametrically opposed opinions.Just like there are junk-food vegans, there are junk-food raw foodists, too. Because raw veg are low in calories, raw foodists focus a LOT on dehydrated sprouted grains, nut butters/patés, added sweeteners, and lots of fruit. The typical diet of a raw foodist contains more fat than you would believe! Ugh I confuse quickly then. Is this good or bad? This is just my experience, but it speaks to what several people have expressed:
I suffer from several autoimmune disorders, including Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. Me too, I have fibromyalgia and also am hypothyroid, for which I take Synthroid now, Armour Thyroid previously. The medications really get it under control. I did go to a homeopath hoping to avoid the medicines, but I just couldn't wait as long as he asked me to for the "remedies" to work For a couple of years my medication was not adequate a couple of years? that's a long time to suffer with that pathological fatigue. did your hair thin too? and I wasn't exercising enough, and wasn't eating the best I could, and I wasn't losing weight. No matter what I did, I couldn't lose even a single pound! It was really depressing and frustrating. What I learned after years of this is that my disease/medication was part of the problem – once I got an adequate dose, I finally had the energy to exercise. But the main issue was ME. Not following ... how could the main issue be you ... when it was the medicine that actually restored back your metabolism and energy? I was not exercising enough, and I wasn't eating the right diet. Sure, I thought I was eating healthy – and to the average person, I was! But after learning as much about nutrition as I have, I know now that my diet was still too heavy in certain things, and too light in others, and it was preventing me from losing weight. When I finally changed my diet enough and started exercising regularly (and I mean really exercising, not just going for walks), I lost weight. (My diet is far different from anyone I know. It is far different from even PCRM's Kickstart plan. If I had to categorize it, I'd say it's closest to Fuhrman's Eat to Live plan, but even that isn't 100% accurate.) I think too many people, myself included, want to blame "something else" for their problems, when they may need to take a look in the mirror. Barring any medical or health issue (of which there are MANY), if someone is not losing weight, it's because they're not doing what it takes to lose the weight. Losing weight, especially for older people, is extremely difficult and people all too often write it off as "too hard" or "my body just won't cooperate." I had the same problem, and have felt those same feelings. I know how painful and frustrating it is. I won't lie and say it was easy. It was not and it still is not. I still hate getting up early to go to the gym. I hate the elliptical machine. I freaking hate exercise and sometimes all I want to do is sleep, and then eat junk food. Hell, I want to eat junk food ALL the time. But I don't. I get up, show up and do my damn workout. Before my back problems I would do about 60-90 minutes on the arc trainer in the gym, an hour on treadmill ... I enjoy sweating, working out to funky music, and find the endorphins addictive. Oh, and I cannot work out without music. I work harder, and longer. Also some weight training. With all that and carefully watching what I ate, drinking gobs of water ... maybe I would budge 2 lbs every 3 months. But you're right ... it's patience that counts ... if you're body is stubborn, you've got to just keep persevering. What's the alternative anyway, you've got to work with your body as it is and just be patient ... eventually you will get there. I do think the drinking water thing is very important. I lost 10 lbs in 3 weeks confined to my couch after my surgery ... I was drinking tons of water. What do you like to do for exercise ... machines, sports? ... in the high resistance and high I eat the right foods that I know are nourishing and not going to make me fat. And I do not put junk food poison into my body. I do this because I like the RESULTS. I want my body to feel good and perform well, and so I do what it takes to achieve that. Our bodies are machines, and we have to treat them as such. Give them the best fuel, the best maintenance, and the best treatment, and they will give us good health in return. [b][i]
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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revolutionoftheheart
Joined: 01/07/10
Location: NYC
Posts: 164
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RE: Finally found it -- "The Fat Vegan"
Posted Thursday, September 30, 2010 at 7:24 PM
Poll: How many of you have been on Weight Watchers in your say, over 40 years, and given up on it? Having to deal with the staff who proudly announce out loud when you've lost, and keep mum when you've gained ... as if it's shameful or your fault. Oh and I had one b*tch say do this or do that, when she has no idea how hard I've been trying. Then you have to listen to conversations around recipes or calories involving animals. WW never again!
"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978
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